Podcast: COP29 HyCOPrisy

After pressuring Azerbaijan to up gas production for export, the EU is using COP29 to greenwash the fossil fuel and its own climate image. In this episode we talk to Pascoe Sabido, campaigner and researcher at CEO, about his analyse the EU's hypocrisy as its climate goals and upholding human rights are overtaken by energy security demands and greenwashing.

Who we are

This podcast is produced by CEO and Counter Balance. Both NGOs raise awareness on the importance of good governance in the EU by researching issues like lobbying of large and powerful industries, corporate capture of decision making, corruption, fraud, human rights violations in areas like Big Tech, agro-business, biotech & chemical companies, the financial sector & public investment banks, trade, energy & climate, scientific research and much more…

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Transcript of the episode (there might be slight changes to the final audio version)

Hi, Pascoe. Hey Joana, how are you doing? 
Good, how are you? 
I'm not bad, I'm not bad. 
I'm slightly shaken by the US elections. We're recording this in the morning, so it's like, yeah, this is maybe, yeah, as you said, not unexpected, but still quite a shock. Yeah, definitely. But we are here today to talk not about the US elections, but about your new work on Azerbaijan. Indeed, COP29, which is supposed to happen on 11th of November. Obviously, it's going to be massively impacted by the US elections, but we wanted to tell a slightly different story about COP29. A story all about methane.

When I say methane, what comes to mind, Joana? The first thing? Cows farts.

Cows farts, exactly. So everyone thinks of methane. Yeah, that's the one source of methane. Methane is actually like a really powerful greenhouse gas. Over a 20 year period it's more than 80 times worse than carbon dioxide for global heating. So it's actually really powerful and it's responsible for almost a third of all global warming since industrial revolution. So yeah, it's a real problem but actually one of the big sources is the oil and gas industry. It’s not cows, it's the oil and gas industry. It's responsible for about 30% of methane emissions. So this is a story all about methane. Bear that in mind as we go forward. We'll come back to methane.

And what did they use methane for? Well, sorry, I didn't even say this. And methane, you know gas you use in your cooker? That's basically methane.

So what we call natural gas or fossil gas is primarily made up of methane. It's an odourless gas. that they added a smell to so that when it leaks we can smell it. But methane is what companies like BP, Shell, Eni are all drilling up and selling and transporting and what we're burning. So it's a fossil fuel that powers our entire energy system sold by the oil and gas industry. So it's pretty important. And yeah, COP29 is a story all about methane. But yeah, I guess COP29 is in Azerbaijan this year. What's your thoughts about Azerbaijan?

I have to say I don't know a lot about the country, but it has, let's say, a poor track record in terms of human rights. It's not exactly a democracy.

No, it's a very authoritarian regime under Ilham Aliyev and his family, who have been in power since 1993. It's also a petro-state, I think. 90% of those exports are fossil fuels. And yeah, it's actually Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan, was the first ever oil town. It's where the oil industry began. It doesn't look like much has changed since then. And Baku, that's where COP29 is going to be hosted. So in the middle of this petro-state, for the third year in a row, we're having a UN climate talks in a petro-state.

Exactly. I was going to say that. So after Egypt, after the United Arab Emirates, and now Azerbaijan. That's three in a row, that's quite something.

Yeah, pretty much. It's quite shocking. That plus Trump, great. But I guess the story you hear about Baku, about hosting COP29, is that the country's gonna massively increase its oil and gas production. So it's going to up it by around a third. So SOCAR, the national oil and gas company, is there involved in lots of offshore gas projects in the Caspian Sea. So that's going to be increased. They're really not stopping. And the leader, President Aliyev, has called his fossil fuel reserves a gift from God. So this is the main narrative coming out. deep in fossil fuels. And meanwhile, the EU, have you heard anything how the EU might be presenting itself?

They try to present themselves as like green champions, right? Completely. And that's the rhetoric. Yeah, they're telling the world, you know, how they're phasing out of fossil fuels.

They've got these targets, legally binding targets, they're making deep cuts to carbon in our economy. And the negotiators even have a mandate from European leaders to... Yeah, support a phase out of fossil fuels. So that's the story we're hearing. Bad Azerbaijan, good EU. But the story that we're hearing a lot less of is that in fact, the EU and the EU member states are the main customers of Azerbaijan. They're the ones pushing Azerbaijan to double its exports. So in 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine, the EU decided to move away from Russia gas. So the political decision to move off Russian gas. and it turned to Azerbaijan. So we already had a massive pipeline called the Southern Gas Corridor, which goes from Azerbaijan all the way through, I think, Georgia, Turkey, Greece, Albania, and ends up in Italy. And the Southern Gas Corridor was gonna bring Azerbaijani gas to Europe. And so in 2022, they agreed to double the capacity of that pipeline from 10 billion. cubic meters to 20 billion cubic meters. A lot of gas. I mean, not that much compared to what Russia was exporting, but still a lot of gas. So they've doubled the amount that they want to import from Azerbaijan. And actually Azerbaijan's production is going for EU consumption. So there's a huge hypocrisy when the EU's image of being in transition and aren't we great and we're massively reducing fossil fuels. That's in complete contrast to actually getting Azerbaijan to increase its fossil fuel production. locking it in. So the EU's image appears quite a fake one. And then the question comes like, I don't know, how do you think the EU justifies this? How did the EU square this circle?

I guess like just using the Russian invasion of Ukraine and yeah, the uncertainties around the other sources of possible sources of gas and maybe like the delay in ecological transition, which would be like the normal thing to do. to turn to renewables?

Yeah, so I mean, part of it is it does say, oh no, look at all the great stuff we're doing and talking about how, you know, the world agreed to triple renewables and double energy efficiency by 2030. And it talks a lot about all of these things. And you're right, underneath it, behind the veneer, is energy security. Like we just need to find other sources, we need gas, the economy needs gas. But actually, publicly, the way it's trying to justify increasing gas and pushing Azerbaijan to increase its gas is by claiming that the Azeri gas is lower carbon. It actually uses the word lower carbon. So actually getting Azerbaijan's gas is all about the transition. It all fits. Oh, look, it's all hunky-dory. Azerbaijan increasing its gas output to Europe is part of the transition.

I thought you were going to mention some kind of ridiculous fake solution like CCS, something like that. But it's even worse.

It's even worse. It's just we're going to call it lower carbon. I mean, I'll get onto the why. I'll get onto that. Or maybe the how. That's the why. The how. But I mean, just to say, so Azerbaijan hosting COP29 for the EU, I mean, perfect. This is the perfect place for the EU to showcase this story that actually importing Azerbaijani gas is lower carbon. But to showcase this story, there's one thing it needs, first of all. It needs Azerbaijan to be on board, which it didn't have. So that's the story that we're telling. So we got hold of a load of documents from the EU that can help us tell this story.

How did you get hold? I don't know if you want to get into that now, but do you want to explain to our listeners how you got those documents?

Yeah, definitely. So a lot of CEOs work is trying to... see what happens beneath the bonnet. So what happens behind the scenes between corporate lobbyists and governments and between governments themselves? So we use, there's a great website called asktheeu.org, which allows you to, because where there's freedom of information legislation in the EU and it allows you to ask for, for example, I've asked for all the minutes of meetings between Azerbaijan and the European commission about COP29. And I mean, don't get me wrong, often we don't get the documents, they're denied on various grounds. not in the public interest, it's going to harm commercial secrets, all these things, or they delay, delay. A lot of my requests for COP29 have been delayed, but we did manage to get some documents. And you can see them if you go on asktheeu.org, you can actually see the documents I got hold of, and they'll also be in the bottom of the article. So yeah, this is a really important piece of legislation that allows freedom of information, which allows us to see what's been going on. So using these documents, plus like extra research. we realised that the EU has been pushing Azerbaijan to get on board with this lower gas methane for a while. It's been pushing it to get on board with something called the Global Methane Pledge. And the Global Methane Pledge is worth maybe flagging because it's gonna come up a lot in this story. It was launched by the EU and the US at COP26 in Glasgow back in 2021. And the goal is a voluntary pledge, it's worth saying voluntary, this is a recurring theme. The aim is to reduce methane emissions 30% by 2030 compared to 2020 levels. And in March, 2024, there were 158 countries signed up. And that covers all methane from across the economy. However, within that, you've got something specifically focused on the oil and gas industry, and that's the Oil and Gas Methane Partnership 2.0. I don't know how to think. maybe 1.0 didn't really work very well. But this is the oil and gas methane partnership or OGMP 2.0, which, again, is a voluntary self-reporting framework for the industry. And this collects data from the industry and provides it to a UN led international methane emissions observatory, which tries to keep track of how we are doing in terms of the global methane pledge, how a country is doing. how a company is doing. But these are coming for severe criticism, both the Global Methane Pledge, the Oil and Gas Methane Partnership, and the Observatory, the International Methane Emissions Observatory. 
So the renowned International Energy Agency, the IEA, it showed how self-reporting has led to a vast, vast under-reporting of methane emissions. Vast underestimation. Of course, the oil and gas industry is not gonna say, producing loads? No. So the IEA has come out and said the actual figures of emissions is 70% higher than what's been officially reported 70%. So that's massive. And then also civil society groups like CAN Europe, which are based in Brussels, have looked into the methane, International Methane Emissions Observatory, so looked into the observatory and have really criticised it for its dependence on and close links to the oil and gas companies it's supposed to be verifying. So like quite a big conflict of interest there. And they've also said there's a complete lack of transparency, which gives even more power to the industry and its self-reported figures. So all of this, you know, the global methane pledge has come in for big criticism. And yet this is what the EU wants Azerbaijan to join.

This is what it's been really, really pushing it from the beginning because the EU says, If I mean, we've got a document, it's mad. He says, if you join, where is the document? I've got them all in front of me. That if the EU joins, if Azerbaijan joins. Sorry, if Azerbaijan joins, let's find it up here, because we've got a whole host of documents. One of the goals of it joining was to the EU to then establish global market for lower emission oil and gas. So literally it's telling Azerbaijan, if you join this global methane pledge, we will be able to create a new market for you in oil and gas. So it's, I mean, I find it completely balmy. So the EU wants Azerbaijan to be part of it so it can say it's got lower carbon gas, but there's also something important, which the EU now has new regulations on methane. And by 2027, all countries exporting to the EU have to have similar rules on methane as the EU does. So ultimately, it really wants Azerbaijan to have this so it can keep importing from them.

And so therefore, if you get Azerbaijan to join the Global Methane Pledge, and you get its national oil and gas company SOCAR to join the oil and gas methane partnership, which is specifically for oil and gas companies, then the EU can say it's meeting its climate targets. And it even said explicitly back in 2022, when Azerbaijan agreed to double its exports to the EU after the invasion of Ukraine, President von der Leyen, so the Commission president, said at the press conference, she said, I strongly encourage Azerbaijan to join the Global Methane Partnership in order for the EU to be, and I quote, “consistent with our responsibilities on climate”. So she honestly thinks that by Azerbaijan joining this voluntary partnership based on self-reporting, it will be consistent with the EU's responsibilities on climate. So this means it will be consistent with this piece of legislation as well. So she's really up for it. I mean, can I just, it's very relevant, but maybe an aside, joining a voluntary methane pledge based on industry self-reporting and under-reporting is not meeting the EU's climate commitments. Stopping oil and gas? No. I mean, maybe stopping oil and gas production. Yes, that's meeting the oil and that's meeting, you know, the climate commitments, reducing some leakages, because this is, this is what this is about. They say, we're going to address leakages from our production, because actually what happens when you drill for gas, when you transport gas, loads of it leaks. Because methane is 80 times worse over a 20 year period, it has serious consequences for global heating. So with that leakage, what the oil and gas industry says is, oh yeah, don't worry, we're going to tackle our leakage. You know, we're going to tackle our leakage. But tackling leakage is not transitioning away from fossil fuels. I mean, that allows the fossil fuel industry to continue. I mean, it literally says, don't worry guys, you can continue producing oil and gas like Azerbaijan. You can massively increase your oil and gas production, but it's climate friendly. I mean, the EU is even going to make a market in it. I mean, and also it's important, it gives them legitimacy. So it gives them a seat at the table. It allows them to define what the transition is. So, I mean, it's mad. It pretends that drilling more gas is climate friendly. I mean, the world has enough gas. We've got enough gas. We don't need more gas. I mean, to try and keep to 1.5 degrees, we need to stop all new fossil fuel infrastructure and leave the majority of existing reserves in the ground. And here the EU is pushing Azerbaijan to dig up more oil and gas. I mean, yeah, I personally, I find it bonkers. But this is, yeah, this is what the EU, the EU wants. It wants to bring Azerbaijan and SOCAR on board with these voluntary methane pledges and partnerships so it can claim to be low carbon.

And our docs reveal a lot of lobbying, serious lobbying efforts. So as soon as Azerbaijan was announced as host, We got some documents which show it was already asking about methane. It was already trying to get Azerbaijan on board and saying, we can be doing stuff on this at COP29. Let's use it. Let's use it to showcase methane. Part of their approach was flattery, you know, telling in what document where has the EU and Azerbaijan could have a joint leadership story to tell on methane emissions at COP29. And then later in another meeting, you've got a great story to tell. you know, telling Azerbaijan and SOCAR, just tell your story guys. It's yeah, I guess it was, yeah, slight flattery. I mean, I don't think that story is going to include human rights abuses, there's a renowned Azerbaijani economist called Gubad Ibadoghlu, who actually came up Azerbaijan is not going to be able to increase its production in the way it means, and it's not going to be able to increase exports to Europe either, because there's just not the capacity in the pipeline, the upgrades haven't been done. He came out and voiced this, and a year later, he was locked up. He's been... Azerbaijan basically detained him on what Amnesty International calls fabricated charges in relation to his criticism of the government, because Aliyev, the authoritarian leader in Azerbaijan... came up publicly and said those who are criticising Azerbaijan's ability to produce gas are part of a campaign to undermine Azerbaijan and those claims were absolutely groundless. So those critics have been locked up. But that is not the leadership story that the EU is talking about at all.

But yeah, we see as well as flattery, they've offered a lot of prestige to co-host joint ministerials about methane emissions. They've even done in-person lobbying. So imagine there's a big conference in Madrid earlier in the year. It was the Oil and Gas Methane Partnership annual implementation conference. And they explicitly reached out to Azerbaijan's Department of Energy to invite someone along to lobby them. A few days after the conference, Azerbaijan announces it's joined the Global Methane Pledge. So yeah, they're pretty effective. They also, whilst in Madrid, and this conference, the Oil and Gas Methane Partnership, this conference had more than 125 oil and gas companies, because that's who the members are, plus regulators. So this is where industry and regulators get together. And this is where the EU is doing its lobbying.

And whilst there, we've got minutes of a transcript of a summary which shows that they also spoke to the vice president of SOCAR whilst in Madrid at this conference. and told them if he joins the oil and gas Methane partnership, they could provide political support. And they also suggested we can do more on this at COP29. Two months later, SOCAR told the EU that they'd actually joined the partnership. So the EU has been pretty effective, got both Azerbaijan and SOCAR on board with these Methane pledges and partnerships. So then how can it use COP29 to showcase this good news? How can it sort of... showcase lower carbon. Well, it identified the COP29 president as a key, key guy. So the COP29 president, let me find my document again, the COP29 president is called Babayev. And he used to work at SOCAR, the oil and gas company for 24 years.

Surprise, surprise, especially I don't Yeah, so the CEO of Saudi Aramco. Of a CEO of ADNOC . Oh, sorry. Oh, which is the Azerbaijani. Yeah. National oil and gas company. So I mean, UAE, exactly. I'm sorry, Azerbaijan, the UAE, the Abu Dhabi in fact, apology. The Abu Dhabi oil and gas company from ADNOC and last year. So we're continuing this trend.

So Babayev in his role as COP29. president was identified as a key man, but not because he was COP29 president. So that we've got a briefing prepared for the Director General of DG Energy, Juul Jørgensen. And it says, aside from his COP29 role, Babayev is Minister of Ecology, and as such, directly in charge of domestic action on methane. So they've identified this guy, this is the guy that can make things move when it comes to methane in Azerbaijan. And organise things. So this was where their lobbying efforts were targeted. And yet again, we saw later in that meeting, Jørgensen tell him Azerbaijan has a great story to tell because they really needed to try and persuade Azerbaijan to go big on reducing methane emissions from oil and gas, which, you know, they were they were focusing on other things. They were focusing on methane from waste, but to go big on oil and gas. So that's sort of where they put their efforts. And I mean, they're pretty effective. Yeah.

Pretty effective when you see what COP29 is like. In the build-up to COP29, Azerbaijan has been hosting all sorts of events on methane from the oil and gas industry, partnering up with the International Energy Agency during Baku Climate Action Week. You had BP and SOCAR doing all sorts of things, showing off how they're tackling leakages. So it's been a really present thing. And during COP29 itself, we're gonna see ministerials, we're gonna see big events from China and the US. We're gonna see, I think we'll probably see it. I mean, it might be behind closed doors, but the CEO led round table, the EU suggested to co-host or like to support, sorry, to get SOCAR to do and to support. So there's a lot going on. So it's become a really, really key part. And yeah, I mean that. That has been a big success story for the EU because with Azerbaijan going big on oil and gas, it means it's able to tell its success story of how the EU is transitioning, you know, that we're having lower carbon oil and gas. That's sort of really key.

So the EU thinks it's going to be able to tell its transition story. But I mean, let's be honest, no, like this, this is not lower carbon gas is not a thing and it's not a commodity. This is a way of completely greenwashing continued gas extraction and continuing with business as usual. And the EU should not be allowed to tell this story because, I mean, I find this really shocking that the EU thinks that it can transition whilst locking in the rest of the world into fossil fuels. You know, the EU is historically one of the biggest polluters. It's one of the biggest contributors to the CO2 that's currently in the atmosphere. You know, the reason global warming is happening. because of the EU, the US and others who have historically polluted the atmosphere. And now it's saying, oh, guys, we're going to transition, but you need to carry on producing fossil fuels because we need them. So we're seeing Azerbaijan increasing production across Africa. There's been a dash for gas for Africa. And driven by the EU, like this is completely hypocritical. So the EU should not be allowed to tell the story it's transitioning.

And then there's also a really important third bit. I mean, we touched on it earlier. is it's completely legitimising Azerbaijan and its activities. I mean, the fact that repression since the announcement, COP29 was announced, has increased in Azerbaijan. The fact that Azerbaijan has been involved in ethnic cleansing in the Nagorno-Karabakh region is not being spoken about. And that's being sort of completely greenwashed as well with this needing Azerbaijan to seem like a good clean energy player and a good... provider of lower carbon gas. So I mean, it means, yeah, it means they're completely whitewashing the Azerbaijan's regime whilst pretending to be energy in energy transition.

And I think there's just the last reason why if we've got time, the EU also should not be allowed to tell this like we're an energy champion story, because the EU is the one that's ensuring the fossil fuel industry remains in the driving seat and remains a legitimate part of these these negotiations. I mean, I don't know if you remember COP 28 and how many fossil fuel lobbyists were there.

2500? Not bad. 2456. Well, probably more than that. I rounded that round to see how I was going to round it down. You round it up. So do almost 2500. Exactly.

2500 fossil fuel lobbyists, according to analysis from the Kick Big Polluters Out campaign, which CEO is part of. And at the European level, the EU and its member states, they brought more than 130 fossil fuel lobbyists to COP. So the commission itself brought senior executives from Exxon, NE and BP into the climate talks. You know, this is, these are three companies who have actively worked against an energy transition. Three companies who, after the invasion of Ukraine, have all increased. or let's say they've completely scrapped their commitment to reduce oil and gas production and increase it. And the reason given was it's just too profitable. It's just too profitable not to. So we're sorry, we just gotta keep on digging for oil and gas and selling it. So these are companies who clearly put in their profits before any climate targets, any transition.

And this is not just about emissions, you know, fossil fuel extractivism. leads to huge human rights abuses on the ground, huge pollution, people losing their livelihoods. I mean, you look at Mozambique and the situation there with huge numbers of people being killed by sort of armed insurgencies. No, I mean, there's been massacres. And even by people hired by Total. Completely. I mean, Total has been completely complicit in this.

But this is the story around the world. Where you have fossil fuel extractivism, you have human rights abuses and people losing their lives and livelihoods. I mean, it's the history of fossil fuels. So it's not just the emissions. And that happens along the entire supply chain, where pipes get built, where export terminals are, like the cancer alley in the US where there's huge amounts of fracked gas exported from. I mean, it's a horrendous sort of horrendous reality of people struggle just to like to survive, to be heard by politicians who are listening to gas companies rather than. than people. I mean, it's really shocking to see. So it's not just the fossil fuel emissions, it's the entire fossil fuel economy that goes with it. And the EU is facilitating it. That's what's massive, despite knowing that these companies, they are not interested in a transition. So that is why, in fact, on Monday, the 4th of November, more than 100 groups who are part of fossil free politics, the fossil free politics campaign wrote to the EU's climate a guy called Wopke Hoekstra. He also has a background on fossil fuels. Hell yeah, he used to work for Shell. I know, the conflicts of interest are everywhere. I mean, yeah, they're in government. The revolving door has been swinging. So more than 100 groups as part of the fossil-free politics campaign wrote to Hoekstra to ask him not to bring fossil fuel lobbyists to COP29. And we also saw across Europe, there were sort of nine countries writing to their ministers. asking them to not bring fossil fuel lobbyists to COP29. And also in Japan, we saw in Japan a similar letter was sent. So there is this upswell of saying, actually, this is just not acceptable. So, you know, people are aware, like the public is aware, civil society is aware. And we are, yeah, we're trying to sort of, I guess, fight back because this story from the EU, that it is a climate leader whilst, yeah, whitewashing Azerbaijan, pushing lower carbon gas. I mean, it's all it stinks. It absolutely stinks. So yeah, we felt, you know, as CEO, we wrote the article to try and like, make sure it doesn't get away with that.

Well, this was not a cheerful conversation, Pascoe. Where's the cheerful bit? Right. So it began with Trump and now we've got a sort of an authoritarian regime and the EU whitewashing it to take its energy. Um, no, but let's go back to cheerful. What can people do? Maybe.

Yeah, I was going to say like, so there are things that are happening. I mean, of course there's the realpolitik. We need to get off gas as soon as possible. strong grassroots movements are demanding this, but no, if I'm honest, it's going to be a struggle. It's going to be the next decade is going to be a massive struggle because we've seen the EU shifting to the right as well. So how do we make sure the green transition? We need to make sure, A, it's not just for big business and is for people as well, but B, that it's global. There's no point EU transitioning by itself and forcing everyone else to carry on with fossil fuels. the planet's still going to burn and the EU will burn with it. So, it's either global or it's nothing. So I think there are, there's huge opportunities for international solidarity. And COP is actually one of those. I mean, the civil society at COP coming together, this is where some of these links are made and campaigns are waged and, you know, we can make sure that we do have a global perspective. And in the COP itself, so we look at fossil fuel and how many fossil fuel lobbyists will be there, that work will be happening. and try and expose just that grip of fossil fuel industry power over the talks. So we'll be releasing that and there that's global effort. And we're trying to kick them out. I mean, I'm part of this. I feel actually in the streets, we have a lot more support than in the halls of power. That people realise the fossil fuel industry is as bad as tobacco industry, but yet we don't treat it the same way as a tobacco industry. We haven't. stopped lobby meetings, stopped it sitting on expert groups and going along on government delegations to climate talks. You would never take a tobacco lobbyist to a WHO meeting. I mean, legally, you can't. I mean, it's actually the EU has signed up to the UN Framework Convention on Tobacco Control and part of that convention recognises the conflict of interest between the tobacco industry and public health. here obliges countries to take measures to address that conflict of interest. So the EU could not take a tobacco lobbyist to a World Health Organisation meeting. So we need something similar for the UNFCCC, the UN Climate Talks, but also for the EU level. You know, this is not just the UNFCCC, it's a symptom of what's happening at national level. So we need this at all levels. But I feel like in the streets... We are winning that argument. We are like, people know, like, the social license of the fossil fuel industry is being eroded. But right now, their economic power, which they're wielding over politicians, is still holding strong. So yeah, the balance is shifting in our favour in that sense. And we just, yeah, we need to keep going with it. We need to get stronger. But we also need to like relate this, this is not about climate. This is about people being able to... pay their bills until the end of the month, energy prices. This is about whether people can heat their homes. Because at the same time as people are going cold this winter in Europe, the energy companies are gonna be earning billions. So this is about our economic system and who controls it. This is not about how many parts per million or emissions coming up from these companies. This is about the economics of it. And that's what we need to hold onto if we're also gonna fight this sort of rise of the far right. and the sort of right-wing politics that's happening. So we need broad coalitions, we need the trade unions on board, we need the feminist movement on board, of course the climate movement and the youth involved with that, but linking with those who are suffering housing issues, the housing justice movement, the energy poverty groups, indigenous peoples from across the world. These are the coalitions that we're pulling together to fight the fossil fuel industry and we need to see these at all levels, the UN level, the EU level, national level, local level. and keep that solidarity going. So yeah, there is, there is hope. I'm still hopeful, even if these are dark times.

Great. I will not keep you any longer. We've been talking for a long time, but thank you so much, Pascoe. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you Joana. Cool, cool. Bye.